At 14, Gina De Vries has the courage of her convictions - she wants to be herself and she wants to help others feel free to do the same.
Gina De Vries is no ordinary adolescent. Two days before her 12th birthday, she told her parents she was a lesbian. Her mother, Chris Zupanovich, an administrator in Levi Strauss' human resources department, and father, Dan De Vries, a fund-raiser with the National Center for Youth Law, immediately reassured her of their love and support.
With their blessing, Gina began attending programs at the Lavender Youth Recreation and Information Center in the Castro District, and has since become a vocal advocate for gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender kids - or ''queer youth,'' in her preferred vocabulary. A year ago, Gina testified at hearings on the needs of gay youth held by the San Francisco Human Rights Commission.
The following spring, she joined the Human Rights Commission's Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender Advisory Committee as its youngest member. She is currently trying to establish a support group specifically for gay youth who do not have the kind of family support that she does.
Gina recently began attending Urban High School in San Francisco, and this week received an award as one of four ''brave little girls'' in a contest sponsored by the San Francisco Public Library. She writes a column about young gay women for Curve, a lesbian magazine, and publishes her own 'zine, called Luscious Thoughts. Articulate, unaffected and quick to giggle, Gina recently spoke with The Chronicle at her family's Ingleside district home.
Q: Many people, when they see this interview, will think, ''You're only 14 years old. How can you possibly know you're a lesbian?'' I'm sure you must have heard that already.
A: Oh, do I really want to go into that explanation again? (Laughs.) First of all, the way people define themselves sexually changes all the time. I just feel I am what I am right now, and if that changes, then it does. What I feel today may not be what I feel next week, or in a couple of months or in 10 years. But it hasn't changed for 3 1/2 years, since I began identifying as a girl who likes girls.
I'm open to other possibilities, and I know there's always the possibility that yeah, I might fall in love with a guy. But if it does happen, it doesn't mean my attraction to women will just completely diminish, you know what I mean?
I think people are especially scared of youth who come out, because they're scared of the idea of youth basically claiming their own sexual identities. The idea of kids being sexual and having feelings like that is very frightening. And it shouldn't be frightening. Humans are sexual beings, and there's nothing wrong with that.
Q: But there is a specific fear people have about youth defining themselves as gay or lesbian.
A: Yes, because it's outside of the norm. People have a problem with queers anyway, regardless of their age. But it's particularly frightening for them that younger queer people are coming out, because it shows we're more vocal and there are more of us. I mean, we've always been there, but we're more willing to come out and show we're around, which is of course going to be frightening to parents who really don't understand or don't want to accept their queer children.
Q: How and when did you start to identify as a lesbian?
A: It was about three or four months before my 12th birthday. It had been apparent to me for a long time. I knew I really liked girls. It was not that I didn't like boys, I just didn't like them the way other girls liked them. I kept trying to convince myself I did like them the way other girls did, but it wasn't happening.
Girls would be discussing boys, and they would say, ''I have a crush on him.'' And I'd be like, ''Um, he's nice.'' (Laughs.) It wasn't the same kind of feeling. And then there was the fact that I'd been getting crushes on girls for a long time. It was more older women than it was girls my own age. A couple of teachers, then a girl who was a year older than me.
I think the crush on one of the teachers made me think, ''OK, you need to pay attention to this.'' I tried to push it to the back of my head and act like it wasn't there, even though it was and the feelings were really strong. But once I realized that I did actually have a crush on her and was attracted to her, I started to think about how I'd liked women all my life. I'd been aware of it before, I just hadn't been aware of what it meant.
Q: Have people asked you if it's about hating boys, or if you've had bad experiences with boys?
A: (Laughs.) I love boys. I really like them. I've had no bad experiences with boys. A lot of my friends are male. I mean, gender in terms of friendship is not a big deal for me. I have a lot of great, supportive male friends, and female friends, gay and straight and bisexual and transgender and everything. I've dealt with a lot of boys who were really sexist, but those boys didn't shape my entire idea of who or what men were.
Q: And have some said, ''You know, Gina, you just haven't met the right guy yet?''
A: (Laughs.) I've actually gotten that from younger people more than older people. There was a boy in my class who once said to me, ''You can't really know yet, you're so young.'' He was my age, and I said, ''Well, are you heterosexual?'' And he was like, ''Yeah, yeah, straight as this table.'' And I said, ''OK, so how can you say that you can identify yourself with total confidence, but I can't do the same thing for myself?''
And once I said that, he realized he had said something that was a little illogical when I turned it around. (Laughs.) And he looked at me and was like, ''See, Gina, you wouldn't understand where I'm coming from.'' But he shut up. I think he got the fact that I was willing to pick at him over this, because he was being hypocritical. There were other times when people said, ''You can't know this, because people don't figure it out until they're 18.'' That kind of thing. ''You figure it out when you're older.'' Like you turn 18 and you find a note from God on your pillow determining your sexual destiny. (Laughs.)
Q: So have you been dating yet, or asked anyone on a date?
A: (Laughs). I'm kind of shy. No, I haven't, not in the date-date sense. I've definitely been interested in dating people, but it's never quite turned into me actually going out with somebody. And I'm pretty comfortable with that. It's like when I'm ready to date, I will date. And right now I feel ready to date, but it's not happening, and that's OK.
Q: What was it like knowing you felt this way before you were able to tell anybody?
A: It was really lonely. When I was still basically identifying as heterosexual, I was the sole kid in class who would defend queer people, who would tell the boys to stop calling other boys ''faggots.'' That kind of thing. I thought it was OK for other people to be gay, but then when I realized it about myself, it was much different. I didn't really feel ashamed, I just felt very lonely.
So I came out to my sixth-grade teacher. First I told her I had a friend who might be gay, and I asked her if she could find some numbers for gay hotlines. Then I just said to her, ''There's no friend, it's me.'' She asked how I knew, and I explained. She looked up the number for LYRIC (Lavender Youth Recreation and Information Center). So I started calling them and going there.
Then I also came out to the girl who is now my best friend. Considering how old we were, the maturity of her reaction astounds me now. Looking back on it, I realize we were both really young.
Q: Gina, you're still really young!
A: (Laughs) I know, I know. But I was 11 and she was 13 at that point. It was a really funny conversation. It was nearing Valentine's Day, and I was kind of trying to bring up dating or going to a dance to ease into it. And I was saying to her, ''Do you know if the school's going to have a Valentine's Day dance?'' And she was like, ''Why, is there somebody you'd like to ask?'' And I said, ''Well, yeah . . .'' And I thought, what have I gotten myself into? She hounded me and said, ''Oh, come on, is it Johnny? Is it Joey? Is it anyone whose name starts with a J?''
At that point I said, ''Um, well, the thing is, I don't like guys.'' (Laughs). And she goes, ''Oh, come on, I know they're jerks, but there must be somebody you like.'' And I didn't know whether to burst out laughing, because she was totally misinterpreting what I was saying. I said, ''No, you don't understand. I like girls.'' There was this silence, then she said, ''Oh, Gina, that's OK. That's fine.'' She was a bit nervous about it, and she had her questions, but she never abandoned me. And because we could be honest with each other, the friendship grew a lot.
That was in sixth grade. But except for that, I didn't come out at school, because I was really scared. There was a bad homophobic feeling at school, and I wasn't ready to face that yet. Then in seventh grade, I came out.
Q: What was the reaction?
A: Some kids came up to me with genuine questions. They really wanted to educate themselves. And that was OK. But some of it was really mean-spirited. More and more I was getting questions like, ''Well, what do you girls do together?'' Or, ''Are your parents gay? Is that why you're gay?'' Or, ''Is it contagious?'' The really depressing thing is that many times they were snicker-snicker questions, but other times they were asking because they really didn't know.
I found myself kind of being the queer poster child at my school, because I was the only one out. There were a lot of younger kids coming up to me and asking questions. I was able to educate a lot of them, but then when I would go out on the school yard, others would run away from me and they'd scream, ''Oh, my God, it's Gina the lesbian!''
That really hurt me. I knew they were getting the stereotype of gays being the recruiter or child molester from their parents and friends. I actually had second-graders come up to me and say, ''We know you're going to try to have sex with us, that's why we don't like you or want to be around you.''
Q: Why do you think people have that idea that gays are child molesters?
A: I don't know. Being gay isn't a social problem, but many people tend to think of it that way. They figure if there's this big social problem, then there has to be a cause for it. So they decide, ''The cause is the teachers who are gay and are recruiting our young ones.'' I think people are scared of what they don't know, and therefore have to place the blame. First, they have to realize it's not a problem, and secondly they have to realize nobody is to blame. You are who you are.
Q: There's been a lot said about gay and lesbian kids committing suicide or attempting suicide. Did you think about that at all?
A: I remember being really depressed for a long time. I never seriously considered killing myself, but there were points when the thought crossed my mind. Then logic always said to me, ''No, you don't need to do that.'' So I didn't think about it in terms of planning what I might do.
Q: What is the difference between you and a gay or lesbian kid who might think about it more seriously?
A: I think it has to do with isolation. How much support you have or don't have, where you are in your head. How emotionally strong you are. If you feel nobody ever will be around to support you, then you're feeling really hopeless. You feel there's no way out.
Some kids do kill themselves after they come out, because the emotional and physical harassment is too much to deal with, and they feel it's not going to end. I think a lot of kids figure it would be easier being dead than dealing with the harassment. But what people have to remember is you can always get out of those situations. Even if it doesn't seem like it. Another thing I found really important in the queer community is that the older members do care about us. Once you come into the community, there are going to be people looking out for you.
Q: Is trying to help get that message across part of why you want to be visible and active?
A: I feel like everybody matters. Nobody deserves to go through such awful pain and torment because of who they are. Part of my being an activist is to get out there and say this is an OK thing, and it's not something you need to be ashamed of and hide, because the more you hide, the more you lie to yourself, and that just causes you more pain.
Q: What was your parents' reaction?
A: I was in sixth grade. We were eating tacos for dinner, and I sat down on the floor with my head in my hands and I was obviously visibly distressed. they kept asking me what was wrong. I said, ''I can't tell you. I can't.'' I knew I had to do it. So I wrote down the number to P-FLAG (Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays) and gave it to them. My dad looked at it and handed it to my mom, and they both just kind of nodded. And I burst out crying.
My Mom had known for a long time that something was going on, that there was something I hadn't been able to tell them because I was really scared. They had their questions. They asked if I was sure. I said yes. I was very emphatic. They never denied that I was feeling it. They thought that whatever happens, however Gina turns out, she's our daughter and we love her, and that's all right. They were wonderful then, and they're wonderful now.
They were also relieved to know I was OK. There was this big burden lifted from my shoulders. I could be honest with them, and they were really happy about that.
Q: Why were you scared to tell them?
A: Just because I was. I didn't know what to expect. I had heard a lot of horror stories from a lot of other youth who hadn't had the same kind of experience that I would have. Who had terrible experiences with their parents, being rejected, being thrown out, being beaten up, being sexually assaulted, that kind of thing. It's not like I expected my parents to do that at all, but I had just heard all this bad stuff.
Some people said to me that even if your parents seem like really cool people or like they're accepting, sometimes when it hits closer to home, it's much harder for them to take. I knew my parents weren't going to beat me up or throw me out, but I was just scared that once it hit closer to home they wouldn't be accepting. I was just totally wrong.
Q: One thing I think frightens some people is that creating a more open atmosphere about homosexuality may give teenagers more space to try to figure out what they want to do. So in some ways, it might mean that some kids who might go into a heterosexual path might think, ''Well, let me check this out.''
A: Yeah, but that's a good thing. I'm not saying everybody should experiment wildly. I mean, not everybody knows what they are right away, and you don't need to know right away. To figure out who you are is healthy. Everybody is different in how they discover who they are. But whatever you do, if you're not hurting anybody, if it's helping to figure out where you're going on life's path, then that's what you need to do, and more power to you.
Q: Many people who read this interview will be horrified. They'll say, ''It's morally wrong, it's not natural, your openness and your parents' openness is part of the moral collapse of our society.'' What would you say to them?
A: (Laughs.) There are a lot of questions there! I don't think it's wrong to love somebody. That's what it's about. If I was in a conversation with somebody and that was said, I'd have to ask why they think it's wrong. There are a lot of reasonings. Everybody has different views about why it's not natural, or why it's wrong. And once you get to the bottom of what those reasons are, you can start to educate those people. You need to start with what they've been taught and try to help them unlearn it.
Q: Gay and lesbian kids today seem comfortable with the word ''queer.'' What's that about?
A: It's kind of reclaiming the word. I like it, but it also depends upon where it's coming from. I mean, I'm really comfortable with the word ''dyke,'' but if some 8-foot- tall skinhead walks up to me and calls me ''a goddamn dyke,'' it has a different connotation than if a lesbian friend were to refer to me as a dyke. I think reclaiming those words as a symbol of pride is important.
And also, queer is very all-encompassing. It's taken us a long time to get as broad as lesbian-gay-bisexual- transgender, but that can also sometimes seem restrictive.
If somebody doesn't want to stick a label on themselves, then ''queer'' is a good label to use, because it just means you're not straight or just have a different view of sexuality and gender. It's ambiguous and fluid. In terms of letting people define themselves sexually, we also have to let it be known that it's OK not to define yourself if you don't want to. There has to be room for everybody.
An Out and Happy Home: A Conversation With Gina's Parents
Q: When Gina first told you she was a lesbian, how did you feel?
Chris: It was a very emotional night. I knew something was going on with her for six months, and she wasn't telling me because, for whatever reason, she couldn't. It was hurting me inside because I could see how much she was hurting. But she couldn't tell us till she was ready. After that, what I saw in her was this total change in personality. She wasn't moping anymore, she wasn't moody, she wasn't sad. I saw this kid just blossom. Things started happening in her life that were really positive.
Dan: It had been very noticeable that she was very, very interested in all different kinds of gay stuff. And I was scratching my head and thinking, ''Well, is this just something that she's interested in, or is she just trying to tell me something about herself?'' I didn't want to be intrusive and ask. So I didn't, I just watched it.
When she did come out, there were a couple of days of, ''Boy, OK, this is something I have to adjust to in my life. This is going to make her life different than it would be if she was just your 'normal' heterosexual charming little-girl-who-meets-boys kind of stuff.'' But it was what I had been expecting, and it was a great relief to have her expressing it on her own.
Q: How about when she started becoming politically involved?
Chris: We were pretty excited. We were both political activists in the '60s and '70s, and we've always been interested in political and social issues. So having our daughter be an activist didn't seem far from what we expected. I figured she'd have strong convictions about whatever her beliefs were, and this is who she is.
Q: How have others reacted when they heard about Gina?
Chris: At first, people were shocked when I would say, ''My daughter's a lesbian.'' I didn't do it for shock value, but it would come up in conversation. It's just another fact in our lives, but it's not a negative. It's just different.
Dan: Every so often, I get into it with people who aren't close friends. Particularly on the golf course. There was one guy who's a jerk, and he's very homophobic. He talks a lot of bull. Once there were a bunch of women getting ready to play after us, and he goes, ''Aargh, lesbians!''
And I said, ''You know, Bob, my daughter's a lesbian.'' And he goes, ''Your daughter's a lesbian? What does she know about that?'' And I said, ''More than you do.'' (Laughs.) And that was the end of it. It was great. Nobody could shut this character up, and that did.
I've had gay friends before in my life. They've all talked about a very early sense of just being different, and that's what Gina talked about. People come to this realization by their own account at a very young age, so 11 years old didn't seem that young. From all the stories I hear, people seem to think our reaction as parents is an unusual one, but it seems like a natural reaction to me. Parents who can't deal with their kids being gay are just messing up the whole relationship.
Q: Has anybody ever suggested that you somehow caused it?
Chris: I don't know if they're thinking it, but they're not saying it.
Dan: If anybody did bring that up, I would say that I'm very proud of Gina, and if I had something to do with it, then I think it's something I did good.
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Gina De Vries
1983: Born February 3 in Palo Alto.
1995: Comes out to family and friends and starts attending programs for gay and lesbian kids at the Lavender Youth Recreation and Information Center in San Francisco.
1996: Testifies at gay youth hearings held by the San Francisco Human Rights Commission.
1997: Joins the Human Rights Commission's Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender Advisory Committee and begins attending Urban High School in San Francisco.